12 comments on “Rachel’s Rebuttal

  1. I agree the French Revolution comparison is weak, although the main analogy, Have’s vs. Have-Not’s, does ring true.

    In terms of macro theory, it seems like Charlotte got caught in the zero-sum fallacy of wealth. I agree our economies are positively linked.

    “Allowing ‘undocumented workers’ to come pick lettuce for 50 cents and hour doesn’t help our economy or theirs.” – I’m not sure what you mean by this. We get cheap labor and they get more money here than they would at home. As long as they aren’t coerced to take the job, that’s the free market in action. Hear, hear!

    I believe you’re correct, that illegal immigrants increase the burden on our health care, legal and social welfare systems. However, one thing to understand is the increased value they bring, in terms of cheap labor. If production costs for the vegetables they pick or meat they render or homes they build were to increase by 100, 200 or 500%, we’re going to end up paying for it. So, in return for the value they provide in that sense, they get access to our infrastructure.

    You say: “If we allow Mexican immigrants… they will come in greater numbers.” Frankly, since I see the cheap labor as a good thing, I don’t see a problem with this, on our side. The real problem, I think, is the stagnation Mexico experiences because the only people left are the only ones not capable of getting out. I think that’s one of the reasons we’ve been commanded us to gather in our stakes in order to build up Zion.

    “…please correlate the good Samaritan to an individual, not an entire society or nation. We will only be blessed for, and judged upon, our own individual actions and the contents of our own hearts.” – I think this statement can be dangerous. Certainly, what we do on a day-to-day basis is important, if for nothing else than because it happens every day, over and over again. But, when we have an opportunity to enhance the lives of millions, we will be held accountable for our part in that opportunity.

    It’s funny that you have a protectionist perspective (in terms of immigration) but you said this: “The United States must protect the Freedom of US citizens to pursue wealth and prosperity”. I don’t think cutting a segment of people willing to enter the job market is going to enhance our wealth and prosperity.

    I say, let the market decide who comes and who doesn’t. If somebody commits a legitimate crime, they should be dealt with. But if wanting to come here and better your life and that of your family were a crime, there’s a ton of Mormons who wouldn’t be here right now.

  2. Again, I don’t mind if people come here… I just think they should make an effort to do it legally! Since I think many readers here are from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I’ll quote the 12th Article of Faith:

    We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

    In essense, we must be law abiding citizens. Immigrants, cheap labor or not, must also be law abiding citizens. Sure… illegal immigration might be a minor crime as opposed to murder… but it’s still illegal, nonetheless. You’re either in accordance with the laws of the land, or you are not. There isn’t an in between.

  3. Oh, and there are ways for those that are not citizens of the county to legally work in our country as well… so, if they are not citizens and want to work here… they should work here legally too (and if they are working legally, I could care less that they aren’t official citizens).

  4. @Ailene: I completely agree that people should obey the law. It’s funny, because the one thing we do know about illegal immigrants is that they’re willing to break the law to come over.

    However, my point is that the laws should be changed to allow more people to come over. In fact, since it’s so important to obey the law, I think we should be more careful about the laws we make…

  5. I don’t know what current laws the immigrants have to go through to become citizens or to work here. I don’t think citizenship or the ability to work should just be handed to them. I think that they should be able to speak English, understand and obey the laws of the land, as well as be able to establish a decent job over here to provide for their families. Obviously different circumstances would warrant different arrangements… but those, I think, are the basics…

  6. Just thought it was funny…the repeated acknowledgment that seeking riches or being rich is not wrong…true…but did you know that the Catholic Church has just declared that having excessive wealth is now a major sin? Tsk, tsk.
    Not that that has anything to do with anything.

  7. I would just like to point out that what Ailene and M and Heidi are saying is MY WHOLE POINT. We need to change the laws to make it legal for them to come here. Everyone should obey the laws. And the laws should be made for the people, not the other way around. Loved your point about the free market M – i agree.

  8. Hmm… actually I didn’t say that the laws should be changed. I don’t know what the current laws ARE… so I can’t say whether or not they should be changed. However, I can say that whatever the laws are… however convenient or inconvenient they may be, that they should be followed.

  9. I’m sorry Ailene – what I meant when I said “what Ailene is saying…is my whole point” was that I AGREE that the immigrants need to follow our laws. I’m not saying we should just “roll over and play dead” (as Rachel put it). My suggestion (not yours) is that our immigration laws are broken and need to be changed. Sorry that I didn’t make that clear enough.

  10. Hmmm… interesting theory. However, there are many laws that are broken. Just because a law is broken doesn’t mean that we should change our laws to make what they are doing legal… perhaps this may be an extreme case of your point… but what if we decided to legalize street drugs, and lower the drinking age, just because so many people currently break that law?

    I don’t know if that’s what you’re saying or not… but I personally wouldn’t change immigration laws just based on the fact that so many people break them. In general, people need to conform to the law… not the law to the people. (There are some exceptions, being that we live in a democracy, but I think the general rule applies in this case).

  11. Right on, Ailene!
    The current immigration laws are inconvenient (waah-waah-wahh). It takes time – in many cases months or years – to complete the process of legally immigrating to the US. And, there are limits on the number of people who can immigrate from each country. Obviously the number allowed from Mexico is a bit less than 35 million per year.

    However, these laws should not be changed. The reason they are in place is so that every immigrant can go undergo a thorough process which includes background checks and a minimal amount of education on the laws and government of their new country. Finally, they are asked to pledge allegiance to the United States of America. These things are necessary, and I believe they should be made MORE stringent! Especially in this age of terrorism and international warfare, I believe we should put new immigrants through even more thorough screening and education – not less!

    Finally, it is important to limit the numbers of immigrants from each country. As I’ve said before, allowing “everyone” to leave Mexico and come to America will not improve their economy. It will damage ours, and it will leave no one in Mexico but those who are unable to leave.

    Immigration reform is needed, but not in the direction Charlotte and others are seeking.

  12. rnlockett said legal immigrants must “undergo a thorough process which includes background checks and a minimal amount of education on the laws and government of their new country. Finally, they are asked to pledge allegiance to the United States of America.”

    On those points, I agree that those steps are still necessary for legal immigration.

    I am not certain of what other immigration laws there are, so I can’t state my opinion of the current laws… I just know that if it’s law, it should be followed (and I’ve stated that about a million times now… :))

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